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Wage War

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Today’s post comes from perennial sophomore Bubby Spamden of Wendell Wilkie High School.

Hey Mr. C.,

So I think I got myself into a kind of a tough spot yesterday.

We were talking in Mr. Boozenporn’s Social Studies class about Minnesota raising its minimum wage, on account of a lot of us are going to earning it someday (if we’re lucky), working at burger joints and discount stores when we (some of us) graduate.

Pretty much everybody was saying “it’s a good thing” and “about time” and blah, blah, blah. But all I ever want out of that class is to get Alicia Erickson to look at me, and she seemed pretty interested in the topic.

So I kind of blurted out that the minimum wage “… isn’t really the issue.”

And Mr. Boozenporn, who is the laziest teacher I’ve ever had and he really ought to be fired for wasting our class time this way, said, “What’s the real issue, Bubby?”

And so I said “It’s the huge difference between the money that little people get and what the fat cats get, which is why there ought to be a maximum wage too.”

Then it got really quiet in Mr. B’s room.

Don’t get me wrong. I like my school but a lot of the kids come from over around the lake, so the idea of a maximum wage didn’t go over too well because most of them saw it right away as a ceiling on their inheritance, which they’ve already imagined collecting because some of them (I won’t mention any names) have told me they daydream about strangling their parents in their sleep and running away with the money.

Really! Like you could get away with that!

So Mr. Boozenporn said “Bubby, tell us more.

I didn’t really have any more to say, but you know how it is. So I think I said something about “… once you get rich you can’t really spend it sensibly anymore …” and “… the super rich aren’t happy …” and “… anyone who can’t be satisfied with ten million dollars isn’t really trying …” and some other stuff I don’t remember.

So then Alicia Erickson (of all people!) speaks up and says my ideas are stupid and putting a cap on income would just drain incentives from the job creators and that our economy is built on what she said is “the urge to achieve.”

Which was kind of thrilling because Alicia was looking right at me and talking about urges.

So Mr. Boozenporn said “Alicia and Bubby will debate this on Monday. They’ll be graded on the quality of their reasoning and everyone else will be graded on respectful behavior and the clarity of your note-taking. Class dismissed.”

And then the bell rang.

Now everyone is mad at me for ruining Monday with a whole hour where they’ll have to sit quietly and take notes. But I’m mad at me because I have to debate Alicia Erickson and I’m pretty sure she’ll destroy me!

I guess I need to think some more about the stuff I said, to see if I believe any of it. Right now, my plan for Monday is just to move my mouth and make random sounds until the bell rings.

Unless you have some other ideas for me?

Your Pal,
Bubby

How do you win an argument?

59 thoughts on “Wage War”

  2. Good morning. Like Clyde, I also say, “don’t”. Differences of of opinion should be discussed in a civil manner. Arguments usually don’t end well.

    Anyway, doesn’t everyone know that I am usually right? There is no point in arguing with me. You might get the last word. You probably will not hear me say I am wrong.

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    1. Yes, attacking with a blizzard of facts (whether relevant or not) is always a good tactic. But the most devastating strategy in an argument is the one I learned from my mother – silence. In an argument, if you take a nice long moment of quiet, it completely throws off the other arguer, who usually rushes in to fill the void and then it’s just a long, slippery, downhill slope.

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      1. In the 60’s I had a fraternity brother who had an implant behind one ear. He wore thick-framed glasses to hold the electronics which nested against the implant. In an argument or even just a discussion he would state his case and the take off his glasses, which left him completely deaf.

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  5. I am thankful that I have had no arguments with anyone the last few days when the possibility for discord was high in dealing with medical personnel, family, etc. I try to win arguments using the empirical, show them a graph approach. My dad’s family members have historically been hot headed arguers, with great aunts fighting and pulling hair in the ditch and great uncles shooting at one another. My aunt once threw a chair through the window of a pool hall in Magnolia where my uncle was playing poker until the wee hours. That is a diffucult statement to ignore . (My dad commented that this brother, who lost his wife a couple of years ago, was playing cards when she died in hospice. I guess she lost that argument in the end.) In some ways I have wished that I had siblings to share the responsibilities I have now, but other people who have siblings tell me I am lucky that it is all up to me and I have no one to argue with.

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    1. Best wishes to you, Renee, on dealing with the death of your mother. I am glad that you seem to have had good medical people and hospice people there to help you deal with the end of your mother’s life.

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    2. Like most pastors, I used to referee a lot at this moment you are in right now. so yes, it may be nice. my brother made a huge scene at our mother’s funeral

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    3. Sounds like interesting family dynamics, Renee.

      Jacque asked me to convey her deepest sympathy to you, Renee. She and her husband are currently in Holland, and absolutely love it. Today they were going on a tour to see tulips and windmills, so she didn’t have time to get to the blog. She loves that the Dutch are extremely liberal and love Obama, who was just there on a visit that everyone is still talking about.

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    4. In my experience, the worst sorts of arguments possible are likely to flare up when relatives get together in that difficult time when someone seems to be dying. If there is ANY dissension in the family, that will bring it out. Your friends are probably right, Renee, to think you are blessed by having no such arguments.

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    6. wishing for siblings makes me think of that story about the guy with the crippled hand who asked god to make his hand like the other one and poof he had two crippled hands

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  6. I try to only argue with my s-i-l, who has to let me win.
    (My s-i-l will finish seminary in about a month; just a little course work to go. And yesterday he agreed to a call, which will soon be formalized. He will be a Lutheran and a Methodist pastor, serving a church of each flavor very close to where they live. A very good turn of events.)

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    1. That is wonderful news. The ELCA will lose 40% of rostered leaders in the next 10 years, so we need all the new pastors we csn get.

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  8. In 31 years I didn’t win a single argument. Then, when she was divorcing me and was awash with guilt, she left me win one as she was going out the door. That’s how I got to keep the walnut spoon holder she wanted to take with her. It’s on my stove still.

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  9. It all depends- is this a fair fight? a level playing field?

    I find increasingly that there is no point in arguing in most cases, as it is all about who owns the field- usually not me. The days of workplace negotiation are over as far as I can tell. Take it or leave it, you can always be replaced.

    The big song from “Frozen” is “Let it Go”- I find myself humming it fairly frequently.

    I will discuss with the s&h, and he has learned to make skilled and reasonable arguments, but he also knows that in the end, the grown-up will make the final call. He knows me to be pretty fair and reasonable, so he goes along with that.

    When I was his age, things were far more authoritarian and so I learned to do most things on the QT-not sure if that qualifies as winning or simply sneaking.

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    2. when i was that age and was in that authoritian world i asked what the consequences for telling the authorities to stick it in their ear. usually i was able to live with those consequences and found they didnt come around. i went ahead and and found out on my own that they were right in some instances and that i was in the ones i liked to claim as the ones i intended. fun times. let him go

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      1. well the boy gets to “go” quite a bit.

        One thing I’ve learned the hard way, and am trying to spare him from doing is Tilting with Windmills/Beating Your Head Against a Brick Wall.

        Also known as choosing your battles.

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  11. Being literal as always, my story of wage inequality is stark. Back in the 60s, I had a job working in the Lincoln Del deli. After three years, they hired a man with no experience and had me train him. He foolishly mentioned what he was making – it was a great deal more than me, so I marched into the boss’s office and insisted that he give me a raise.

    He told me very clearly, “No woman will ever make that much here!” and laughed. The next day, I felt very compelled to see if there was anything I could do to correct this injustice. After a few phone calls, I found myself talking to the Human Rights Commission. The new sex discrimination against women law had passed only months earlier, so they were itching to have their first woman come forward.

    That would be me. After strong assurances that nothing bad would happen and that the state would protect me, I agreed to be the first one. They proceeded to raid the Del’s books two days later, and I was fired the next day. Needless to say, the old boy’s club would not tolerate employing any woman who publicly challenged them.

    The case dragged on for over a year during which time I was intensely harassed and exposed. It felt like the four young black men who began the civil rights movement by sitting in a white’s only restaurant in the south. Once this horrid thing I’d done became public, I even had my life threatened. The media began pursuing me as well.

    In the end, I’d become so battered and afraid that I wound up agreeing to settle for $500 and a letter of apology from the Del. There’s more to this story, but I’d rather not get into it right now.

    Half of a century later, it’s taken our first black president’s executive order to rectify equal pay for equal jobs for women. Although I’d never take such a risk again, I guess it had to start somewhere.

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        1. I was wondering about that, too, MIG. I’ve rarely heard anything of his that showed so many glimmers of intelligence as today’s post. I’ve been so amazed by this that I haven’t yet figured out how to answer the question.

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    2. Leslie – welcome to the Trail! I think we’ve all focused on the question we didn’t realize Bubby’s very fine point. THANKS!

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        1. but how old is Bubby? He has been a sophmore at Wendall Wilkie since, um, wow, I’m not sure I even know how long.

          I guess we do have to give him youth in heart (and probably mind).

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  13. at my house the argument of the day is only the argument of the day until we move to the next one. its a tiring exercise that never ends. arguing is the quickest way to turn a moment sour. i am watching alan alda and janne fonda in neil simons california suite and the bickering is enough to make me turn the channel. just like real life. if you think you won an arguement you are mistaken you ave prepared the person on the other end of the discussion for a battle plan for next time. maybe its just me . i have a sister who uses things like logic and facts in her arguments and tells you the error of your thinking because of the lack of information you were obviously working under the assumption of and i enjoy her discussions. they are more informative differences of opinion than snarky bitch sessions. i like her argumnets

    maximum wage. i love it. the idea of the rich companies being able to screw up the marketplace by overbidding for a ceo to lure investors at the investors expense is so wrong. the guys who come in never meet the workers and look at the spread sheets to maximaze profit and return ar ewahts wrong with america today. we went form a hard working innovative land where a guy could get ahead to a big brother based paper trail where the ability to go forward is there but the readienss to do competitive balance with a mega billionaire to match offers is deflating. if you cant beat out mega stuff you need to find your own little niche and become a star at something you love. tell bubby to go into the business of putting a cap on the maximum wage and he will never have a dull moment again. the babes will be all over him and he will have volunteers to head up his action groups.

    damn thought i posted this at 7 30 and was an early guy

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    1. Breathe, tim; relax your nostrils. Better to retreat and live to fight another day. OT – Just watched “The Book thief.” Lovely movie.

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  14. I don’t always win and that’s okay. The key is to gauge if you are arguing where you can change your opponent’s mind or not. If not, don’t waste your breath. Unless you want to poke at them a bit, in which case just keep asking them questions about how they came to their view of the facts (or opinions or crazy ideas) – don’t necessarily explain your own ideas, just keep questioning the source of theirs.

    Or, if you are like me and you don’t often raise your voice, do just that – raise your voice just once on something important (I got a director to pause and rethink by telling him rather heatedly that he was hearing but listening to what I was saying).

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    1. I’d say another thing in the situation where someone is spoiling for a fight is to make sure the argument stays the same. When you ask someone to explain their ideas and they get frustrated with that, they will often start down the primrose path of something entirely different.

      Absolutely infuriating for them to be brought back to the issue at hand.

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    1. Thanks, Steve. I am spending a non- argumentative day with my Dad going through photo albums and other mementos and keeping and tossing. He insists keeping his old referee starting pistol. We boxed up all his tools and mechanial stuff to take to ND.
      He had 6 electic razors, 5 alarm clocks, and 3 telephones that he has graciouly agreed to sort and reduce to a reasonable number. He agreed we could toss the coffee can full of paperclips. As we worked today he kept muttering “why did I keep all this stuff?” We took mom’s clothes to a thrift store yesterday. I guess we cope through action.

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      2. To quote your own sensible self, Renee, “how Dutch of you”.

        Peace be with you and your dad. I cannot even guess how hard this must be.

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  16. I don’t know anything about winning arguments because I most often either a) don’t argue or b) try to argue but lose because I don’t express myself well verbally and become anxious and verklempt. Then I cry. The idea of arguing with someone exhausts me. I don’t even want to consider it.

    I posted on the Mars day instead of today. I get confused about the changing formats. It takes me some time to catch up with all of the posts. I do like to read them and try to “see” each of you and how you’re all doing.

    I’m so sorry to hear about your mom, Renee. You and your family are in my thoughts and I’m sending you peace.

    Congratulations on your move to Minneapolis, Jim. Did you sell your house in CG?

    Best of luck to you with selling your adorable bungalow, Steve. I hope it goes well. I’m trying so hard to gather courage and strength to put mine (not adorable, not a bungalow) on the market. There’s nothing like selling a home to make you realize how much junk you have and how deep your roots have grown.

    Congratulations on becoming a published writer, Chris!

    Thank you to all the Baboons who wished me a happy birthday. It was so much fun to stumble on your posts. I worked until 10 p.m. on that day and so your wishes mean a lot to me.

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  18. It’s pointless to try to “win” an argument. What’s the prize for winning? Animosity from the person you bested. Whoopee. I think the main problem is that people have forgotten how to argue. Instead of actively listening, using logic and reason,and coming to a realization of who is correct or who makes the most sense (since sometimes both sides are fallacious), arguers usually try to shout each other down with tropes, cliches, talking points, or hyperbole.

    So I don’t try to win, I just put new thoughts in people’s minds, usually by saying something like, “I understand what you’re saying, but have you considered (blank)?” Or I’ll just state my view on a topic, not trying to win an argument, just letting someone know that a reasoning human being (myself) has looked at an issue from a different angle and noticed y or z as well as x.

    Being a Libertarian, I realized long ago that people’s first reaction to my politics is “Nut job” or “lunatic fringe,” so I rarely try to persuade someone to come to my POV. But after they ask enough questions, and maybe do some reading or research of their own, they may decide “Hey, that Libertarian isn’t quite the nut job I thought he was. He makes a good argument for (blank).”

    Sorry for your loss, Renee. My condolences.

    Chris in Owatonna

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